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RE: [FW1] CCSA & CCSE with passion
Scott, thank you for your offer, but I am CCSA/CCSE already, and I
consider this certification worth nothing (sorry!). I've got this
certification about 2 years ago after the training.
I have no doubts that you one of those who ".. puts their heart and soul
into making training that makes your lives better." I can tell you even
more: I am one of those, too. Working full time I also have my own company
for 7 years where I teach folks Computer Networking, programming, Web
Development, etc. There is only one difference: I DON'T TEACH FOR
CERTIFICATION - I TEACH FOR JOB, A NEW PROFESSION. As the secondary effect,
practically 100% of those graduates who took my program (which is from 3 to
7 months) and who wanted to pass the test became certified later.
It makes me angry when I hear the certification hypes everywhere. Just
recently I read about new certification for anti-virus product (Anti-virus
certified engineer!). How do you like this crap??
No, Scott, my arguments ARE NOT INVALID. Any professional who went
through it knows that any certification is good when is backed up by a
real-world experience. Otherwise, it's a piece of paper that confirms an
ability to memorize and pass the test as well as some familiarity with a
particular product.
The right way to the top of profession is to get hands-on knowledge and
experience and then confirm it with the certification. In this case you know
how to solve the problem, may demonstrate that you are REALLY know the
product well, and will never feel embarrassed. Therefore, the short 2-5 days
course is a good introduction to profession for those who have never had a
deal with the product. It may be valuable for those who wants to pass the
tests and who already have some experience. The problem is that many
newcomers are fooled by the marketing machine that pushes certification as a
panacea...
If you want to hear about Microsoft Certified Trainers and what they
do, here is a short story. 2 years ago I have hired MCT who was also Master
CNE and had 2 Master degrees related to Information Systems. I paid him top
dollar because I wanted the quality of the training for my students. In the
middle of the program I had to fire him because he could not configure a
network card in the file server. My Lab Assistant (my former graduate) came
to the keyboard and made the card working in 1 min. You can image the
reaction of the students. Do you need more examples? I have plenty of them.
Some days ago I posted a message to this list that I am looking for
experienced specialist to work as a trainer, and I have been told that this
list is not intended for the thing like that. I sad I am sorry because it is
true.
Scott, maybe you are the brilliant trainer (I wish you lived in
Baltimore), but again, this list is not for advertisements. If you want to
add anything to our discussion, let's take it out of the list. E-mail to me
directly.
Best in you business.
=========================================================
Roman M. Zeltser
RS Information Systems, Inc.NCC, DNE
*** Securing your retirement money from hackers.***
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Schindler [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 2:00 PM
To: Zeltser, Roman; Firewall-1 Mailing List (E-mail)
Subject: [FW1] CCSA & CCSE with passion
I'll make you a deal. I'll train you for free Roman. You will pass the
tests and leave able to implement everything I teach you. How about that?
The arguments you are making are invalid. Don't put that Microsoft CTEC
stigma on everyone. I teach what you need to pass the test and give you
everything you need to actually implement everything we talk about. (by the
way, so do many Microsoft trainers. Didn't mean to harsh on you)
I personally resent being put in a group of training companies like SMU, who
just suck your money out of you and give a rats ass about you after your
done. I would imagine many of my peers would feel similarly.
If someone charges you $1000 for a week of training and you leave feeling
like you were just lectured for 5 straight days, you may have paid for
exactly what you got. When I charge $5000 for a 1 week class, you better
believe that when people leave they are extremely happy or I am not going to
be teaching these classes very long.
And using a mailing list which is targeted to EVERYONE who owns a particular
product for advertising and or certrification discussion is brilliant. This
is a free form discussion forum. We are not kids but industry professionals
that need access to all of the important bits of data that influences our
success.
P.S. If you take me up on my offer. All I ask is for a public apology to
everyone that puts their heart and soul into making training that makes your
lives better.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Zeltser, Roman" <[email protected]>
To: "Scott Schindler" <[email protected]>; "Firewall-1 Mailing List (E-mail)"
<[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 11:36 AM
Subject: RE: [FW1] CCSA & CCSE
> I see that this list becomes the same crowded place for certification
> hypes and advertisement.
> Entire computer training industry misleads people regarding necessity
> to
> get a certification BEFORE getting hands-on experience. Why not, it easy
> to
> train folks for 2-3 days and get a nice margin. It's easy to sell books
> that
> prepare for the tests, it's easy to sell the software that prepares for
> the
> tests... All they want is your money ASAP. Everyone knows that this
> kind of
> training that prepares for the tests (not for the job!) is ineffective
> for
> job search. Be honest, what can you
> memorize/understand/repeat/try/troubleshoot for 2-3 days of a training?
> Ask yourself, if you were an employer, who would you look for:
> experienced
> information security engineer (not certified) or inexperienced but
> certified "chicken". That's all.
> I personally would prefer to see this list dedicated to technical
> problems, but not to the certification soup. There are many sites that
> are
> dedicated to this.
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> =========================================================
> Best,
>
> Roman M. Zeltser
> RS Information Systems, Inc.
>> NCC, DNE
> *** Securing your retirement money from hackers.***
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Schindler [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 5:06 PM
> To: Firewall-1 Mailing List (E-mail)
> Subject: Re: [FW1] CCSA & CCSE
>
>
>
> In the past, Check Point has had issues with their CCSA test, however it
> is
> much better now and getting better everyday. The CCSE 2000 test however
> is
> very difficult. After teaching a class, approximately 90% of my
> students
> pass the CCSA and only 75% the CCSE. But these are statistics for
> people
> with NO experience. If you have experience at the end of the class you
> will
> pass the CCSA and probably have a 90% success rate with the CCSE.
>
> The only problems I have with people failing the CCSA are those that
> have
> English as a second language as even those of us who speak English often
> have problems comprehending the questions.
>
> But if you take Enstar's class, the tests are included and if you fail,
> we'll pay for you to take them again. I had 8 people in my last class
> who
> had never seen Check Point and all of them passed the CCSA and 6 of them
> passed the CCSE. Doesn't do much necessarily for the value of the test,
> but
> certification means something different to everyone, and it means
> success to
> a paying student!
>
> Scott Schindler
> www.enstar.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>; "Omar Dedovic" <[email protected]>
> Cc: "Firewall-1 Mailing List (E-mail)"
> <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 3:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [FW1] CCSA & CCSE
>
>
> >
> > I disagree that the books are "very good".
> > They are full of mistakes....so many, that you would consider the
> price
> > somewhat high.
> >
> > However, the fact that you had to pull your pen out and mark up the
> doc
> > so much
> > during the class probably helped to memorize some of the material.
> >
> > CCSA is a marketing quiz primarily. (not massively difficult from an
> > engineers standpoint)
> > CCSE was much harder. Lots of encryption, nat, aaa, guts of the FW1
> > product.
> > From what I heard, most people do not pass without CCSA+6mo.
> experience
> > with the product.
> >
> > I took my classes and exams and MentorTech (they are good) and from
> what
> > I heard
> > several CCIE walked into this exam and failed. We had one CCIE in my
> > class and he
> > passed.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <[email protected]>
> > To: "Omar Dedovic" <[email protected]>
> > Cc: "Firewall-1 Mailing List (E-mail)"
> > <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 10:26 AM
> > Subject: Re: [FW1] CCSA & CCSE
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > I just took both tests for Checkpoint 2000. The books they give are
> > very good.
> > > Also there is one
> > > book out on Firewall-1. It was a good overview of the product. Also
> > > http://www.boson.com has
> > > pretty good practice tests that are cheap. There is a key gen for it
> > on the
> > > internet somewhere. The
> > > new CCSE test is pretty tough, so study hard.
> > > CP
> > >
> > >
> > > |--------+----------------------->
> > > | | Omar Dedovic |
> > > | | <[email protected]> |
> > > | | |
> > > | | 10/02/2000 |
> > > | | 09:55 AM |
> > > | | |
> > > |--------+----------------------->
> > >
> >
> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----|
> > > |
> > |
> > > | To: "Thornton, Richard"
> > <[email protected]> |
> > > | cc: "Firewall-1 Mailing List (E-mail)"
> > |
> > > | <[email protected]>, (bcc: Chris
> > |
> > > | Prewitt/Whittman-Hart LP)
> > |
> > > | Subject: Re: [FW1] CCSA & CCSE
> > |
> > >
> >
> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----|
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Well when i took CCSA & CCSE it was enough
> > > to read through the books u get at the course.
> > >
> > > If i remeber correctly it was 2 books Sec.Admin and Sec.Eng.
> > > Its also good if u have any "live experience" with the product.
> > >
> > > I can only say 1 thing, DONT underestimate the little tiny details
> > > of the f.e Logviewer (Buttons, menu's etc..).
> > >
> > >
> > > Gl
> > > od
> > >
> > >
> > > "Thornton, Richard" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > group
> > > >
> > > > a huge shout out to all you very helpful people, your information
> is
> > both
> > > > quick and accurate, i have never seen a list with so many
> competent
> > members
> > > > who are willing to take the time to help newbies out
> > > >
> > > > is there anyone out there who has recently sat the CP2000 CCSA &
> > CCSE exams
> > > > I will be booking these exams in a few months after I do the CP
> week
> > course
> > > > at the end of this month.
> > > >
> > > > what I am looking for is good resources giving me guidelines on
> what
> > I need
> > > > to know so i can read up and experiment with areas that i will
> > encounter in
> > > > the exam.
> > > >
> > > > many thanks
> > > >
> > > > richard thornton
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ========================================================================
> > ========
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> instructions
> > at
> > http://www.checkpoint.com/services/mailing.html
> >
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